I’m really fascinated by what readers who are mothers might make of some of Jody’s interview.
It felt super interesting to hear you, Debbie Weil, “admit” (is that the word? I think so) to discomfiting feelings about the possibility of being a childless woman and what that would have brought up for you.
Like Debbie it absolutely never occurred to me that motherhood might not be in my future - it was unthinkable - and occasionally still is, especially when I look at photos of myself as a child and just can’t comprehend how that little girl I’m looking at isn’t now (at 61) a mother - but she isn’t. I’m not a mother because of life’s randomness. I was shocked to be pregnant as a naive 19 year old, devastated to miscarry and yet still reassured as a naive 26 year old (and after 7 years of extremely painful grieving which I barely shared with a soul in my life full of friends) because I was still young and there was plenty of time to meet a right man and have a family. 14 years of life’s randomness later and that man hadn’t come close so at 40 I took what felt like desperate measures and launched into co-parenting dreams with beloved gay friends. One of the most exciting periods of my life ensued as I “knew” I would soon be a mother. I’m not. Those men have since become extraordinarily good parents (as I felt I knew they would) only to adopted children, not mine.
My life is now full, meaningful, and I am utterly transformed by my childlessness in a way that I’m sure your mother-readers will recognise but possibly may not appreciate (that unwanted childlessness is as transformative as any motherhood experience - different but not lesser or worse).
As I age without being a mother I, like Jody, am acutely aware of the need to prepare in ways I might find possible - I’m working on an Alterkin network locally to me thanks to Jody - and allow for life’s randomness which will intervene no matter what preparations I make. Not preparing is not an option though and it feels exciting and juicy.
I’m interested to hear how others respond to your questions - realising I haven’t really done that 😂 but rambled in reaction to your own intro.
Thank you Debbie, for including Jody Day in your Q&A interviews. I always love reading her work.
Clare your words are utterly eye-opening for me! “…unwanted childlessness is as transformative as any motherhood experience - different but not lesser or worse” Thank you.
Dearest Clare, thank you so much for sharing your experience and how radically transformed you have been by your childlessness. It's a sentiment I share deeply, too. Like you, I'll never know what motherhood would be like, but I certainly don't feel short-changed by transformation!
Thank you for your honesty Debbie. As someone who could not have children I think it highlights the deep fears we all have, and the ‘there but for the grace of god’ feeling that we all get with things that are shocking to us. We think we can’t survive, and yet people survive the most difficult and awful things. There is nothing wrong with being grateful for what we have, but the flip side is that we owe it to others to learn how to listen. Starting a dialogue which gives each person enough space to speak their truth without fear of being shot down is surely the way, and your post does this for all parties.
Ironically my not having children is leading to the most significant healing and learning of my life, without which I don’t think I would have experienced it. I could be wrong about that, and I’ll never know, but I think motherhood might not have done that for me, certainly not in the same way. The path would have been another, and we need many different experiences to give depth to our humanity.
And to your point about 'learning to listen', one of the things that has frustrated me deeply over the years is the way that non-mothers (childless/free) are bombarded by mothering information, books, articles, conversations, etc, and are expected to be empathetic about the struggles of motherhood (or risk being branded 'bitter' or 'selfish') but non-mothers (20% of women over 45 and rising) do not merit the same respectful curiosity in return. (Hello patriarchy and pronatalism!)
If anything, we're often expected to be the silent and grateful handmaidens at the cult of motherhood. I've been deeply supportive of the mothers in my life over the years, but it's rarely returned, nor am I even imagined to have needs, simply because I don't have children.
I'm so grateful to Debbie for breaking this mould. It's only about the 3rd time in 15 years this has happened (2 podcast interviews and now this Q&A).
Thank you Debbie for inviting me to answer your '[Bold] Age Q&A’. They were fascinating questions, some of them deserving of a whole article in themselves! A heartfelt thank you too for holding space for women without children, even though, as you write in your candid intro, that brings up uncomfortable stuff for you as a mother/grandmother. Those of us who don’t have children know that, and are used to mothers turning away from us rather than acknowledging that discomfort… Deep bow of respect to you, dear Debbie!
Jody, I am in awe of all that you’ve done to CREATE and SUPPORT a community for the childless-not-by-choice. It’s a huge, and important, undertaking. Hats off to you and thank you for taking the time for our Q&A!
You are very welcome, Debbie and thank you for asking me. I hope that the responses create an opening for a new understanding between mothers/grandmothers and nomos (not-mothers). Pronatalism says that we can never understand each other; I disagree!
Yes, I thought motherhood would be totally transformative, so much so I thought there would be no me. I always knew I was not up for it. I think I would have been a terrible mother, and I feared letting someone steal my heart so completely and never, ever being able to get it back. Regrets? Not really. I regret not being able to find a suitable way of being successful without children, but with children, I don't think I would have stood a chance. I would have been absorbed by them.
I am the unmothered daughter of an unmothered daughter and was terrified that I would mother my own children in the same way, and thus had an abortion when I was 21 and found myself pregnant by accident. I think my instincts were right at the time; I was an adult in body only, and still had many years of healing ahead of me before I could move past the traumas of my upbringing.
Later in life, I did feel ready to become a mother, but suffered from unexplained infertility (nothing to do with the abortion, that was all checked out). I was so desperate for motherhood throughout my thirties, driven by a mixture of pronatalism and yearning, that I think I too would have collapsed my identity into motherhood, as I've seen so many others do... quite possibly to the detriment of my children, and most certainly to the detriment of myself.
I notice that, among my friends who are mothers (old and new), the ones with whom I can have deep and meaningful connections are the ones who haven't collapsed their identity into motherhood/grandmotherhood - they are themselves AND they are mothers/grandmothers. But I'm not sure I would have managed that... I was just emotionally too damaged at the time, and looking for refuge in all the wrong places, relationally...
I am childless, not by choice--my son died. It took me a few decades to write about it, and Substack gave me the opportunity. (Title: I Had a Son) It really helped fade my grief. These days, my nurturing instinct has found its way to caring for dogs, volunteering at wildlife center feeding baby wild animals, and germinating thousands of veg seeds. I'm OK with being childless, and thanks Jody!
I should write a postcript to: "My doctor referred me to a psychiatrist, and I’m always up for a challenge; after all, I fooled the cop". I fooled the shrink, have a prescription for Vyvanse. Or maybe I'm fooling myself and I really do have ADHD.
Jane, I'm so very sorry that Jarret died, and that for so long you lived with the infernal grief of both being and not being a mother. Your Substack piece, 'I had a son',
moved me deeply. I'm so happy to hear that your nurturing instinct has found an outlet - I thought mine was going to eat me alive until I found a way to express my 'mothering heart' in the world through supporting other childless women, and grieving together. In my work, I describe grief as a process of identity transformation, and like you, it transformed me into someone who is OK with being childless, and even grateful to it for the way it whittled my soul down to what I wanted to take forward in life, and opened up the space for a different, and equally valuable, kind of life. Big hugs, Jody x
I went through too many years of infertility treatment and I was president of a chapter of Resolve, an organization in the U.S. that was an advocacy group for individuals struggling with infertility. Those were excruciatingly painful years. I was ashamed and one thing I did to overcome that shame and feelings of being a failure-I couldn't do what women were assumed to be able to do- was to become political about the topic. Now so many years later, in my 70s my life has worked out well, and I've done things I probably wouldn't have been able to do if I had children. But I also wonder about what I didn't get to process, especially the emotional experience.
Nancy, so so interesting to hear your comment repeated by others: “I've done things I probably wouldn't have been able to do if I had children.” Thank you!
I feel the echo of your pain down the years in your words, and how you've transmuted it into healing and advocacy for others; in different ways, it's a path we share. I, too, became a therapist, which has been and is so meaningful for me, as well as a writer and speaker on childlessness, and now, more broadly, on aging without children.
I love the life I have, and see it as a gift of the grief from my childlessness -- and so, in a way, a gift from the children who live only in my heart. Like you, I've had the freedom to take risks that I probably would not have done as a mother, and explore avenues in my life and psyche that I might not have done otherwise.
I know that I can't ever have both lives - that of a mother and that of a childless woman, and so there are some experiences I will never have, but I no longer see that as a deficit. There are so many lives I will never live, so many emotional experiences I may never have. And I know that the depth of grief and meaning making I've had to plumb to make peace with my childlessness is likely to be something that a mother might never get to experience either...
Thank you Nancy for sharing here, it means a lot me.
Loved listening to this. Two people being open, honest and tackling tricky subjects through lived experiences. Holding space for each other in a safe way.
And Jody - you know I love you!
I’m childfree my choice, and own Life Without Children - a place for stories on being childfree or childless.
Debbie I have to admit I was a little triggered (but admirable and grateful for your authenticity and honesty) hearing your fear for childfree people that they may “regret” the “transformational” experience of having kids. Triggered because - so many of us hear this regularly, but as I think you recognise it’s a classic case of viewing someone else’s life through your own perceptive reality. I also admire you for recognising that there’s a feeling in you that people choosing not to have kids sort of feels like a criticism of your choice to have them.
I think these very honest and real feelings may be at the heart of this (unnecessary) division between people with kids and those without?
Funnily enough, I’ve written articles that centre around that very theme; that my choice to not have kids is not an attack on someone’s choice to have them.
To your point. Maybe some people might regret not having kids, but studies show this as very very low. Sadly, studies also show more people regret having kids than not having them. There’s a fascinating book called Regretting Motherhood.
And I guess it can be tricky, motherhood was what transformed you. That’s valid. I guess different things are transformative for those of us opting for different paths.
I guess we need to try and trust that everyone knows themselves best and are in the best position to make these decisions for themselves.
For me, I’ve known since I was 6 years old I didn’t want kids. It doesn’t even feel like a choice. It’s just who I am. Perhaps in a similar way to some mothers feeling being a mother was their destiny, not being a mother was part of my destiny.
Thank you both for helping break down barriers and showing up authentically in this Q&A ❤️
Ali, I so appreciate your judicious comment! Interestingly, I don’t think that motherhood is the only thing that has transformed me; it’s more complicated than that—as it is for everyone!
Thank you for such an interesting interview. I'm childfree by choice, a choice I made clear when I got married 49 years ago. Since then, I haven't really thought about it. It's just my way of being. My life has just been different to most other women who were/are my age. It has never been an issue for me, but frequently an issue for other people, in a mostly negative way. No-one ever said to me 'What a great choice, you made!' but they did say "Ah, you'll regret it, later on.' (I'm 70, I don't.) I find it interesting that even 'by choice' women are defined by others by their motherhood, or lack of, status. I have to say 'nomo' felt like more of this. I'm not a non-mother! I absolutely reject that label! I'm a woman. A woman of age and a certain amount of wisdom. A woman of experience, and memories, and life and future. My marital status, job, religion, financial position, do not define me, choosing not to have children doesn't either. I wonder what the response would be if we classed all single women as 'non-wives'? Any way, apart from that little rant, I enjoyed reading your interview and am appreciative that these conversations are becoming more open. I think that by not bothering to justify why I'm childfree when asked is the best way of being the 'stone'. It's just not a 'thing' for me, so shouldn't be for anyone else.
The thing that bothers me is all the judging that goes on. It doesn't matter if you're a mother, childless, or childfree. Judgment happens all the time, regardless of category. And I am guilty of doing it too. Men don't get judged based on having children or not. At least not in the way women are. There's a lot of uncomfortableness that comes up with this topic, too. As you articulated so well, Debbie.
The grief when you wanted to be a mother had/has to be so hard, Jody. It's wonderful what you've created to support others who also wanted children. I hope you feel seen and supported by all women more these days.
There's also another category: mothers who have one child - not by choice. I know that's not the same at all, but it's also hard to want another child and it doesn't happen. The "only-child" mother. Another category that gets judged for being selfish, overbearing, or whatever.
In Cancer Land, one of the saddest side effects of harsh treatment for some young women is leaving them infertile. It's devastating. I have a friend impacted by this. Thank goodness fertility is being discussed these days before starting cancer treatment (but not always) so egg harvesting and other options can be discussed.
I thoroughly enjoyed reading this interview. Thank you both, ladies.
Thanks for commenting, Nancy and for appreciating this interview - along with Debbie and Susan, you make up a very small group of mothers/grandmothers who have chosen to comment on a piece of work that I poured time, sweat and care into contributing. I confess I have been deeply saddened by the lack of response from the majority of Debbie's readers - why do the lives and experiences of 20% of women - their non-mother friends, sisters, and maybe even their own daughters, seem so irrelevant or literally 'unremarkable', do you wonder?
To your point about secondary infertility (wanting another child and not being able to have one), this is another form of 'disenfranchised grief', which is also the 'type' of grief that involuntary childlessness falls under. A grief that is socially unacceptable, and which the sufferer is not allowed to experience, talk about, seek or accept support for, or even suffer. It's gaslit grief, and it causes deep harm. I have spent 15 years of my life supporting women impacted by it, and speaking/writing about it publicly, including on the TEDx stage. But having seen the silence in response to this Q&A, it feels like little has changed...
As you mention 'cancer land', the 'fertility advice' in oncology is still patchy and very poor, and also frames IVF as something that 'always works', when in fact the live birth rate from frozen eggs at around 25%, which let's face it, is a 75% failure rate, and surrogacy, where legal, faces the same issues. Many countries also forbid former cancer patients from adoption. What I'd love to see is oncology departments (and society!) acknowledging that while involuntary childlessness can be devastating, with grieving, time and support, it is possible to find a new locus of meaning for one's life, and find a new kind of happiness.
Our childfree sisters also show that a meaningful and fulfilling life for women does not have to centre on motherhood. And for those who persist in thinking that childfree women are 'selfish' (not that you did), I often say, 'So you've never met a selfish parent then?!' The childfree people I know are kind, thoughtful, generous individuals to the parents/children in their lives, and to society, despite the open hostility they often receive.
Moreover, amongst the many thousands of involuntarily childless women I've supported over the years who've passed through the storm of grief and identity loss, many emerge as some of the wisest, most psychologically and spiritually mature women you'd want to know, and want your daughters to know. Which also makes it so sad that so many of the mothers in our lives, and in the culture, shun us, as if our childlessness were catching. We are part of that 'village' too, and we can be wonderful role models to the next generation of what grit and compassion can look like. As my own nieces move through their 30s, (some mothers, some not) they treasure that about me, and look to me for bullshit-free advice about navigating life when it doesn't turn out the way you planned!
Jody, don't be sad by the response to this piece! I actually think it's pretty good; the responses are so interesting and thoughtful. I really don't know why more readers who are mothers are not commenting; it's their loss.
It saddens me that you're disappointed by the response. Perhaps more women than you realize have read this wonderful interview but were hesitant to comment for whatever reason. Maybe it's Pollyannaish to wish that women could support other women just because it's the right thing to do. We are so judgmental of one another.
I appreciate your response to my comment. Mostly, I appreciate the work you've done to support other women whether they be childless or childfree. To be honest, I hadn't given the difference a whole lot of thought. Now I see it clearly. And this comes from a woman who has one adult child who chooses to remain childfree and another adult child who is struggling to add a second child to their family.
Thank you for this enlightening read. And thank you, Debbie, for hosting this much needed conversation in your space.
You’re so right. Men are not so often judged for being who they are, though many men do experience the loss of the experience of parenthood as deeply painful of course. And yes, absolutely, the experience of wanting another child when a person has one or two (as happened for one of my beloveds) can also be devastating. The more we can understand that not a single life is lived without some devastation and grief, the better. It’s part of life.
This has always been a central issue to the lives of women. As someone born in the early 1950s it was a given to follow along to become mothers as most of women in the older generations, but it became a choice that was talked about a lot back then as I moved into young adulthood. We were thrilled to have "Choice." One could imagine opting out or at least live life in an intentional way so as to plan well for it. As an artist, I knew motherhood could interfere with that in a big way. We were also encouraged to wait it out to get educated, live freely, have fun--seek the most ideal situation that often never arrives (right partner, right amount of income, right stage of personal accomplishment). Before I knew it, I was 40, but I still imagined having a few more years to land in that just right spot. I was pretty busy and happy with life as I moved right through my 40s to realize that my life of chance and choice had delivered me to menopause without pregnancy. I never made it a priority. By default, I opted out simply by running out of time. Single motherhood or adoption never appealed to me. I always cringe a bit at the term "childfree." Somewhere in the middle zone between childless not by choice and completely willfully choosing against it, there is ambivalence. The men I found myself with wanted no part of becoming fathers (at least at the time). The financial pressures were real back then, as now. I also was not okay with compromising on a less-than-ideal partner, a factor that people do not want to talk about much, preferring the myth of true love and soulmates, etc. I lived with three different men for a year or two each time. Life itself is transformative. I'm sure motherhood offers a very specific version of that just as life without motherhood shaped my transformations. Mostly, I have lived alone, but since age 60 I have been in a relationship and recently married. Although my husband (nearly 80) has several children, none live close by and some are estranged. I have nieces and nephews who are all off making their own families and busy with work. We are very much on the periphery of family who might offer significant help as time goes on. We continue to live creative lives as artists and writers. For now, all is well, but the unknowns of aging are a bit scary, as we are not well off financially and the U.S. is going through so many changes.
Jody ever since I read your book you have been a source of inspiration and sanity for me. Your voice and your words have helped so many women. Thank you.
Jody, I loved your interview , you are Illuminating and an Island of Sanity for me. I loved the stone in patriarchy’s shoe 👏
This might shock some people, but given the state of the world …I am in acceptance that my grandchildren might not make it to elder hood. I still work and commit to doing everything I can to make a peaceful and liveable future for them and all children.
Being childless not by choice must be a great source of sadness, yet in these times it could also be a blessing.
Thank you Susan for your kindness, empathy and honesty. I applaud your clear-eyed acceptance of how the collapse timeline of Westernised modernity may indeed shorten the lives of the generations to come... including possibly your own grandchildren.... That requires a willingness to sit with grief that I know well and admire deeply.
During my training to become a Work That Reconnects facilitator, I met parents of young children (and young adults) who felt deep despair (and some guilt) for birthing their children into these times... And I've met young people choosing not to have children for the same reason, and deeply grieving the children they will never have...
My childlessness has indeed been a blessing (eventually!) as it was a terrifying mid-life dark night of the soul that I barely survived, like all true intiations, and which birthed a version of me who can stand with others in pain, occupy the liminal spaces, and to understand that all things end... so that new things can begin.
Thank you for being a wise mother/grandmother elder, able to hold space for it all, including those of us without children, for whatever reason. You are a rare gem, and I appreciate you, and your comment, very much.
Jody, your wise words make me realize this is the first time I’ve ever really understood what the experience of childless-not-by-choice can feel like. As you put it: “ My childlessness has indeed been a blessing (eventually!) as it was a terrifying mid-life dark night of the soul that I barely survived, like all true initiations, and which birthed a version of me who can stand with others in pain… “
Dear Jody, your words and thoughts brought tears of joy and deep gratitude.
You are my kin, in the rarified atmosphere of our tribe of Spiritual warriors and truth seekers. To know sorrow and grief is our initiation for the work we are called to do in these times .
To lift each other up, in the knowing and love that binds us. We are invisibly doing the mending and tending that is needed now.
I have such admiration for you and all you have also come to terms with.
How you use these experiences to guide and help light the way for us . I also see you as a sparkling gem in Indra’s web of life. 💖Thank you 🙏🏻
Thank you, Debbie and Jody, for this excellent, thoughtful, interview and discussing the many nuances regarding having children or not, acknowledging not having a partner, or not being able to - and how women are perceived along the life course as a result.
I still struggle at times with having been naively hopeful for a partner and a family for far too long, but at age 50, am trying to make decisions based on me, the now, and not some hypothetical future - including giving thought to, and planning for, aging in a very different way than most of my relatives.
Thank you, Debbie, not only for this conversation with Jody, who has helped so many of us navigate the grief of involuntary childlessness, but also for your honesty. We need more frank discussions like this!
I have always rejected patriarchy's sense of entitlement to appropriate and use women's bodies for their male- centred agenda. For far too long, the message has been that we're good enough to be incubators, but we must accept the notion that a child of our own sex is supposed be second best. Women have been deprived of their natural right to pass on their name, yet have been expected to be the main caretaker of the child or children. Women and their children have become the property of the father/husband who puts his label/name on them. My mothering instinct has never been strong enough to ignore all of the above. The fact that women's reproductive choices are under attack is no coincidence. I don't feel obliged to explain or justify my child-free status. When questioned by people with children, I asked them what they were doing to safeguard the future of their children and grandchildren. Had they changed their ways to live more sustainably, and had they taught their children to do the same? The response was always defensive. It's time to remember that we're not the only species who has a right to reproduce, and it may well be a good idea to curb our sense of entitlement to prevent other species from going extinct.
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I’m really fascinated by what readers who are mothers might make of some of Jody’s interview.
It felt super interesting to hear you, Debbie Weil, “admit” (is that the word? I think so) to discomfiting feelings about the possibility of being a childless woman and what that would have brought up for you.
Like Debbie it absolutely never occurred to me that motherhood might not be in my future - it was unthinkable - and occasionally still is, especially when I look at photos of myself as a child and just can’t comprehend how that little girl I’m looking at isn’t now (at 61) a mother - but she isn’t. I’m not a mother because of life’s randomness. I was shocked to be pregnant as a naive 19 year old, devastated to miscarry and yet still reassured as a naive 26 year old (and after 7 years of extremely painful grieving which I barely shared with a soul in my life full of friends) because I was still young and there was plenty of time to meet a right man and have a family. 14 years of life’s randomness later and that man hadn’t come close so at 40 I took what felt like desperate measures and launched into co-parenting dreams with beloved gay friends. One of the most exciting periods of my life ensued as I “knew” I would soon be a mother. I’m not. Those men have since become extraordinarily good parents (as I felt I knew they would) only to adopted children, not mine.
My life is now full, meaningful, and I am utterly transformed by my childlessness in a way that I’m sure your mother-readers will recognise but possibly may not appreciate (that unwanted childlessness is as transformative as any motherhood experience - different but not lesser or worse).
As I age without being a mother I, like Jody, am acutely aware of the need to prepare in ways I might find possible - I’m working on an Alterkin network locally to me thanks to Jody - and allow for life’s randomness which will intervene no matter what preparations I make. Not preparing is not an option though and it feels exciting and juicy.
I’m interested to hear how others respond to your questions - realising I haven’t really done that 😂 but rambled in reaction to your own intro.
Thank you Debbie, for including Jody Day in your Q&A interviews. I always love reading her work.
Clare your words are utterly eye-opening for me! “…unwanted childlessness is as transformative as any motherhood experience - different but not lesser or worse” Thank you.
Dearest Clare, thank you so much for sharing your experience and how radically transformed you have been by your childlessness. It's a sentiment I share deeply, too. Like you, I'll never know what motherhood would be like, but I certainly don't feel short-changed by transformation!
Thank you for your honesty Debbie. As someone who could not have children I think it highlights the deep fears we all have, and the ‘there but for the grace of god’ feeling that we all get with things that are shocking to us. We think we can’t survive, and yet people survive the most difficult and awful things. There is nothing wrong with being grateful for what we have, but the flip side is that we owe it to others to learn how to listen. Starting a dialogue which gives each person enough space to speak their truth without fear of being shot down is surely the way, and your post does this for all parties.
Ironically my not having children is leading to the most significant healing and learning of my life, without which I don’t think I would have experienced it. I could be wrong about that, and I’ll never know, but I think motherhood might not have done that for me, certainly not in the same way. The path would have been another, and we need many different experiences to give depth to our humanity.
Cathy, thank you for this lovely and wise comment. It means a lot.
And to your point about 'learning to listen', one of the things that has frustrated me deeply over the years is the way that non-mothers (childless/free) are bombarded by mothering information, books, articles, conversations, etc, and are expected to be empathetic about the struggles of motherhood (or risk being branded 'bitter' or 'selfish') but non-mothers (20% of women over 45 and rising) do not merit the same respectful curiosity in return. (Hello patriarchy and pronatalism!)
If anything, we're often expected to be the silent and grateful handmaidens at the cult of motherhood. I've been deeply supportive of the mothers in my life over the years, but it's rarely returned, nor am I even imagined to have needs, simply because I don't have children.
I'm so grateful to Debbie for breaking this mould. It's only about the 3rd time in 15 years this has happened (2 podcast interviews and now this Q&A).
Jody, I'm so sorry support has rarely been returned. That has to hurt.
Thank you Debbie for inviting me to answer your '[Bold] Age Q&A’. They were fascinating questions, some of them deserving of a whole article in themselves! A heartfelt thank you too for holding space for women without children, even though, as you write in your candid intro, that brings up uncomfortable stuff for you as a mother/grandmother. Those of us who don’t have children know that, and are used to mothers turning away from us rather than acknowledging that discomfort… Deep bow of respect to you, dear Debbie!
Jody, I am in awe of all that you’ve done to CREATE and SUPPORT a community for the childless-not-by-choice. It’s a huge, and important, undertaking. Hats off to you and thank you for taking the time for our Q&A!
You are very welcome, Debbie and thank you for asking me. I hope that the responses create an opening for a new understanding between mothers/grandmothers and nomos (not-mothers). Pronatalism says that we can never understand each other; I disagree!
Yes, I thought motherhood would be totally transformative, so much so I thought there would be no me. I always knew I was not up for it. I think I would have been a terrible mother, and I feared letting someone steal my heart so completely and never, ever being able to get it back. Regrets? Not really. I regret not being able to find a suitable way of being successful without children, but with children, I don't think I would have stood a chance. I would have been absorbed by them.
I am the unmothered daughter of an unmothered daughter and was terrified that I would mother my own children in the same way, and thus had an abortion when I was 21 and found myself pregnant by accident. I think my instincts were right at the time; I was an adult in body only, and still had many years of healing ahead of me before I could move past the traumas of my upbringing.
Later in life, I did feel ready to become a mother, but suffered from unexplained infertility (nothing to do with the abortion, that was all checked out). I was so desperate for motherhood throughout my thirties, driven by a mixture of pronatalism and yearning, that I think I too would have collapsed my identity into motherhood, as I've seen so many others do... quite possibly to the detriment of my children, and most certainly to the detriment of myself.
I notice that, among my friends who are mothers (old and new), the ones with whom I can have deep and meaningful connections are the ones who haven't collapsed their identity into motherhood/grandmotherhood - they are themselves AND they are mothers/grandmothers. But I'm not sure I would have managed that... I was just emotionally too damaged at the time, and looking for refuge in all the wrong places, relationally...
Jody, thank you for everything but especially for this post. There is so much I want to say, but can’t yet.
I am childless, not by choice--my son died. It took me a few decades to write about it, and Substack gave me the opportunity. (Title: I Had a Son) It really helped fade my grief. These days, my nurturing instinct has found its way to caring for dogs, volunteering at wildlife center feeding baby wild animals, and germinating thousands of veg seeds. I'm OK with being childless, and thanks Jody!
Jane, checked out your stack and love your post about taking psychedelics 🤓
I should write a postcript to: "My doctor referred me to a psychiatrist, and I’m always up for a challenge; after all, I fooled the cop". I fooled the shrink, have a prescription for Vyvanse. Or maybe I'm fooling myself and I really do have ADHD.
Thanks Debbie, your compliment means a lot to me!
Jane, I'm so very sorry that Jarret died, and that for so long you lived with the infernal grief of both being and not being a mother. Your Substack piece, 'I had a son',
moved me deeply. I'm so happy to hear that your nurturing instinct has found an outlet - I thought mine was going to eat me alive until I found a way to express my 'mothering heart' in the world through supporting other childless women, and grieving together. In my work, I describe grief as a process of identity transformation, and like you, it transformed me into someone who is OK with being childless, and even grateful to it for the way it whittled my soul down to what I wanted to take forward in life, and opened up the space for a different, and equally valuable, kind of life. Big hugs, Jody x
Thanks Jody, I feel like I know you. You are providing a great service - hope to stay in touch. Hugs back, Jane x
Jane, I'm so sorry. I will need to check out your Substack.
Thanks Nancy.
I went through too many years of infertility treatment and I was president of a chapter of Resolve, an organization in the U.S. that was an advocacy group for individuals struggling with infertility. Those were excruciatingly painful years. I was ashamed and one thing I did to overcome that shame and feelings of being a failure-I couldn't do what women were assumed to be able to do- was to become political about the topic. Now so many years later, in my 70s my life has worked out well, and I've done things I probably wouldn't have been able to do if I had children. But I also wonder about what I didn't get to process, especially the emotional experience.
Nancy, so so interesting to hear your comment repeated by others: “I've done things I probably wouldn't have been able to do if I had children.” Thank you!
I feel the echo of your pain down the years in your words, and how you've transmuted it into healing and advocacy for others; in different ways, it's a path we share. I, too, became a therapist, which has been and is so meaningful for me, as well as a writer and speaker on childlessness, and now, more broadly, on aging without children.
I love the life I have, and see it as a gift of the grief from my childlessness -- and so, in a way, a gift from the children who live only in my heart. Like you, I've had the freedom to take risks that I probably would not have done as a mother, and explore avenues in my life and psyche that I might not have done otherwise.
I know that I can't ever have both lives - that of a mother and that of a childless woman, and so there are some experiences I will never have, but I no longer see that as a deficit. There are so many lives I will never live, so many emotional experiences I may never have. And I know that the depth of grief and meaning making I've had to plumb to make peace with my childlessness is likely to be something that a mother might never get to experience either...
Thank you Nancy for sharing here, it means a lot me.
What you say so aptly, "there are so many lives I will never life... ." I'm glad we've connected.
Loved listening to this. Two people being open, honest and tackling tricky subjects through lived experiences. Holding space for each other in a safe way.
And Jody - you know I love you!
I’m childfree my choice, and own Life Without Children - a place for stories on being childfree or childless.
Debbie I have to admit I was a little triggered (but admirable and grateful for your authenticity and honesty) hearing your fear for childfree people that they may “regret” the “transformational” experience of having kids. Triggered because - so many of us hear this regularly, but as I think you recognise it’s a classic case of viewing someone else’s life through your own perceptive reality. I also admire you for recognising that there’s a feeling in you that people choosing not to have kids sort of feels like a criticism of your choice to have them.
I think these very honest and real feelings may be at the heart of this (unnecessary) division between people with kids and those without?
Funnily enough, I’ve written articles that centre around that very theme; that my choice to not have kids is not an attack on someone’s choice to have them.
To your point. Maybe some people might regret not having kids, but studies show this as very very low. Sadly, studies also show more people regret having kids than not having them. There’s a fascinating book called Regretting Motherhood.
And I guess it can be tricky, motherhood was what transformed you. That’s valid. I guess different things are transformative for those of us opting for different paths.
I guess we need to try and trust that everyone knows themselves best and are in the best position to make these decisions for themselves.
For me, I’ve known since I was 6 years old I didn’t want kids. It doesn’t even feel like a choice. It’s just who I am. Perhaps in a similar way to some mothers feeling being a mother was their destiny, not being a mother was part of my destiny.
Thank you both for helping break down barriers and showing up authentically in this Q&A ❤️
Ali, I so appreciate your judicious comment! Interestingly, I don’t think that motherhood is the only thing that has transformed me; it’s more complicated than that—as it is for everyone!
Thank you for such an interesting interview. I'm childfree by choice, a choice I made clear when I got married 49 years ago. Since then, I haven't really thought about it. It's just my way of being. My life has just been different to most other women who were/are my age. It has never been an issue for me, but frequently an issue for other people, in a mostly negative way. No-one ever said to me 'What a great choice, you made!' but they did say "Ah, you'll regret it, later on.' (I'm 70, I don't.) I find it interesting that even 'by choice' women are defined by others by their motherhood, or lack of, status. I have to say 'nomo' felt like more of this. I'm not a non-mother! I absolutely reject that label! I'm a woman. A woman of age and a certain amount of wisdom. A woman of experience, and memories, and life and future. My marital status, job, religion, financial position, do not define me, choosing not to have children doesn't either. I wonder what the response would be if we classed all single women as 'non-wives'? Any way, apart from that little rant, I enjoyed reading your interview and am appreciative that these conversations are becoming more open. I think that by not bothering to justify why I'm childfree when asked is the best way of being the 'stone'. It's just not a 'thing' for me, so shouldn't be for anyone else.
I couldn't agree more!
Hi Jody and Debbie,
The thing that bothers me is all the judging that goes on. It doesn't matter if you're a mother, childless, or childfree. Judgment happens all the time, regardless of category. And I am guilty of doing it too. Men don't get judged based on having children or not. At least not in the way women are. There's a lot of uncomfortableness that comes up with this topic, too. As you articulated so well, Debbie.
The grief when you wanted to be a mother had/has to be so hard, Jody. It's wonderful what you've created to support others who also wanted children. I hope you feel seen and supported by all women more these days.
There's also another category: mothers who have one child - not by choice. I know that's not the same at all, but it's also hard to want another child and it doesn't happen. The "only-child" mother. Another category that gets judged for being selfish, overbearing, or whatever.
In Cancer Land, one of the saddest side effects of harsh treatment for some young women is leaving them infertile. It's devastating. I have a friend impacted by this. Thank goodness fertility is being discussed these days before starting cancer treatment (but not always) so egg harvesting and other options can be discussed.
I thoroughly enjoyed reading this interview. Thank you both, ladies.
P.S. I'm a mother and a grandmother.
Thanks for commenting, Nancy and for appreciating this interview - along with Debbie and Susan, you make up a very small group of mothers/grandmothers who have chosen to comment on a piece of work that I poured time, sweat and care into contributing. I confess I have been deeply saddened by the lack of response from the majority of Debbie's readers - why do the lives and experiences of 20% of women - their non-mother friends, sisters, and maybe even their own daughters, seem so irrelevant or literally 'unremarkable', do you wonder?
To your point about secondary infertility (wanting another child and not being able to have one), this is another form of 'disenfranchised grief', which is also the 'type' of grief that involuntary childlessness falls under. A grief that is socially unacceptable, and which the sufferer is not allowed to experience, talk about, seek or accept support for, or even suffer. It's gaslit grief, and it causes deep harm. I have spent 15 years of my life supporting women impacted by it, and speaking/writing about it publicly, including on the TEDx stage. But having seen the silence in response to this Q&A, it feels like little has changed...
As you mention 'cancer land', the 'fertility advice' in oncology is still patchy and very poor, and also frames IVF as something that 'always works', when in fact the live birth rate from frozen eggs at around 25%, which let's face it, is a 75% failure rate, and surrogacy, where legal, faces the same issues. Many countries also forbid former cancer patients from adoption. What I'd love to see is oncology departments (and society!) acknowledging that while involuntary childlessness can be devastating, with grieving, time and support, it is possible to find a new locus of meaning for one's life, and find a new kind of happiness.
Our childfree sisters also show that a meaningful and fulfilling life for women does not have to centre on motherhood. And for those who persist in thinking that childfree women are 'selfish' (not that you did), I often say, 'So you've never met a selfish parent then?!' The childfree people I know are kind, thoughtful, generous individuals to the parents/children in their lives, and to society, despite the open hostility they often receive.
Moreover, amongst the many thousands of involuntarily childless women I've supported over the years who've passed through the storm of grief and identity loss, many emerge as some of the wisest, most psychologically and spiritually mature women you'd want to know, and want your daughters to know. Which also makes it so sad that so many of the mothers in our lives, and in the culture, shun us, as if our childlessness were catching. We are part of that 'village' too, and we can be wonderful role models to the next generation of what grit and compassion can look like. As my own nieces move through their 30s, (some mothers, some not) they treasure that about me, and look to me for bullshit-free advice about navigating life when it doesn't turn out the way you planned!
Jody, don't be sad by the response to this piece! I actually think it's pretty good; the responses are so interesting and thoughtful. I really don't know why more readers who are mothers are not commenting; it's their loss.
Hi Jody,
It saddens me that you're disappointed by the response. Perhaps more women than you realize have read this wonderful interview but were hesitant to comment for whatever reason. Maybe it's Pollyannaish to wish that women could support other women just because it's the right thing to do. We are so judgmental of one another.
I appreciate your response to my comment. Mostly, I appreciate the work you've done to support other women whether they be childless or childfree. To be honest, I hadn't given the difference a whole lot of thought. Now I see it clearly. And this comes from a woman who has one adult child who chooses to remain childfree and another adult child who is struggling to add a second child to their family.
Thank you for this enlightening read. And thank you, Debbie, for hosting this much needed conversation in your space.
You’re so right. Men are not so often judged for being who they are, though many men do experience the loss of the experience of parenthood as deeply painful of course. And yes, absolutely, the experience of wanting another child when a person has one or two (as happened for one of my beloveds) can also be devastating. The more we can understand that not a single life is lived without some devastation and grief, the better. It’s part of life.
Hooray for Jody Day! Childless women will not be silenced.
Thank you for the hooray dearest Eileen! x
This has always been a central issue to the lives of women. As someone born in the early 1950s it was a given to follow along to become mothers as most of women in the older generations, but it became a choice that was talked about a lot back then as I moved into young adulthood. We were thrilled to have "Choice." One could imagine opting out or at least live life in an intentional way so as to plan well for it. As an artist, I knew motherhood could interfere with that in a big way. We were also encouraged to wait it out to get educated, live freely, have fun--seek the most ideal situation that often never arrives (right partner, right amount of income, right stage of personal accomplishment). Before I knew it, I was 40, but I still imagined having a few more years to land in that just right spot. I was pretty busy and happy with life as I moved right through my 40s to realize that my life of chance and choice had delivered me to menopause without pregnancy. I never made it a priority. By default, I opted out simply by running out of time. Single motherhood or adoption never appealed to me. I always cringe a bit at the term "childfree." Somewhere in the middle zone between childless not by choice and completely willfully choosing against it, there is ambivalence. The men I found myself with wanted no part of becoming fathers (at least at the time). The financial pressures were real back then, as now. I also was not okay with compromising on a less-than-ideal partner, a factor that people do not want to talk about much, preferring the myth of true love and soulmates, etc. I lived with three different men for a year or two each time. Life itself is transformative. I'm sure motherhood offers a very specific version of that just as life without motherhood shaped my transformations. Mostly, I have lived alone, but since age 60 I have been in a relationship and recently married. Although my husband (nearly 80) has several children, none live close by and some are estranged. I have nieces and nephews who are all off making their own families and busy with work. We are very much on the periphery of family who might offer significant help as time goes on. We continue to live creative lives as artists and writers. For now, all is well, but the unknowns of aging are a bit scary, as we are not well off financially and the U.S. is going through so many changes.
Jody ever since I read your book you have been a source of inspiration and sanity for me. Your voice and your words have helped so many women. Thank you.
Jody, I loved your interview , you are Illuminating and an Island of Sanity for me. I loved the stone in patriarchy’s shoe 👏
This might shock some people, but given the state of the world …I am in acceptance that my grandchildren might not make it to elder hood. I still work and commit to doing everything I can to make a peaceful and liveable future for them and all children.
Being childless not by choice must be a great source of sadness, yet in these times it could also be a blessing.
Thank you Susan for your kindness, empathy and honesty. I applaud your clear-eyed acceptance of how the collapse timeline of Westernised modernity may indeed shorten the lives of the generations to come... including possibly your own grandchildren.... That requires a willingness to sit with grief that I know well and admire deeply.
During my training to become a Work That Reconnects facilitator, I met parents of young children (and young adults) who felt deep despair (and some guilt) for birthing their children into these times... And I've met young people choosing not to have children for the same reason, and deeply grieving the children they will never have...
My childlessness has indeed been a blessing (eventually!) as it was a terrifying mid-life dark night of the soul that I barely survived, like all true intiations, and which birthed a version of me who can stand with others in pain, occupy the liminal spaces, and to understand that all things end... so that new things can begin.
Thank you for being a wise mother/grandmother elder, able to hold space for it all, including those of us without children, for whatever reason. You are a rare gem, and I appreciate you, and your comment, very much.
Jody, your wise words make me realize this is the first time I’ve ever really understood what the experience of childless-not-by-choice can feel like. As you put it: “ My childlessness has indeed been a blessing (eventually!) as it was a terrifying mid-life dark night of the soul that I barely survived, like all true initiations, and which birthed a version of me who can stand with others in pain… “
Dear Jody, your words and thoughts brought tears of joy and deep gratitude.
You are my kin, in the rarified atmosphere of our tribe of Spiritual warriors and truth seekers. To know sorrow and grief is our initiation for the work we are called to do in these times .
To lift each other up, in the knowing and love that binds us. We are invisibly doing the mending and tending that is needed now.
I have such admiration for you and all you have also come to terms with.
How you use these experiences to guide and help light the way for us . I also see you as a sparkling gem in Indra’s web of life. 💖Thank you 🙏🏻
Thank you, Debbie and Jody, for this excellent, thoughtful, interview and discussing the many nuances regarding having children or not, acknowledging not having a partner, or not being able to - and how women are perceived along the life course as a result.
I still struggle at times with having been naively hopeful for a partner and a family for far too long, but at age 50, am trying to make decisions based on me, the now, and not some hypothetical future - including giving thought to, and planning for, aging in a very different way than most of my relatives.
Thank you again for such an important piece.
Thank you, Debbie, not only for this conversation with Jody, who has helped so many of us navigate the grief of involuntary childlessness, but also for your honesty. We need more frank discussions like this!
I have always rejected patriarchy's sense of entitlement to appropriate and use women's bodies for their male- centred agenda. For far too long, the message has been that we're good enough to be incubators, but we must accept the notion that a child of our own sex is supposed be second best. Women have been deprived of their natural right to pass on their name, yet have been expected to be the main caretaker of the child or children. Women and their children have become the property of the father/husband who puts his label/name on them. My mothering instinct has never been strong enough to ignore all of the above. The fact that women's reproductive choices are under attack is no coincidence. I don't feel obliged to explain or justify my child-free status. When questioned by people with children, I asked them what they were doing to safeguard the future of their children and grandchildren. Had they changed their ways to live more sustainably, and had they taught their children to do the same? The response was always defensive. It's time to remember that we're not the only species who has a right to reproduce, and it may well be a good idea to curb our sense of entitlement to prevent other species from going extinct.